Characters discerning the New Lich King's identity?

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Delion
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Re: Characters discerning the New Lich King's identity?

Postby Delion » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:23 pm

Personally I've always thought the cinematic was to let US know what happened, instead of showing what happens while our characters are there. I think it kinda cheapens it if ANY other characters see what happens - the actual death of Arthas is a kinda personal thing with his father, and even Tirion doesn't interrupt that. You can't really compare it to the Wrathgate - that had two armies of people, and two large camps of hangers on, LOTS of people were there, no doubt about it. This cinematic has a very different feel to it, in my opinion. I really don't think Bolvar would show himself until everyone but Tirion is gone, and the two share a private conversation. You'd think if the 25 or so people who killed TLK were still intended to be present, he would have said something like "You and these brave heroes must keep this secret for the sake of us all".

Whatever people go with, I'm not going to have Delion know what happened.
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Re: Characters discerning the New Lich King's identity?

Postby uthas » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:22 am

So, after finally breaking down and watching the cinematic, here are my thoughts.

1. I like Gabby's idea of the cinematic taking place AFTER the characters have left the room. Even if it plays immediately after he dies, that doesn't mean it happens instantly. Arthas keels over, the players kick him a few times, Tirion walks in and tells everyone to gtfo. People leave assuming he wants some personal ass kicking time, or wants to give Arthas his last rites, or whatever. That preserves the secret, while giving people some time to insert a bit of personal rp in. Which brings me to my second thought:

2. This whole "THERE MUST BE A LICH KING!!!!" does not make one god damn lick of sense. The Lich King's goal is to exterminate all life on the planet. How can the Scourge "get worse" without him? If the Scourge had the ability to do MORE damage than it already is doing, why in the hell would the Lich King hold them back? Taking out the brains of the Scourge just makes them essentially rabid animals, and organized nations will make short work of them in no time. It's like this giant DRAMATIC THING for the sake of having a DRAMATIC THING. It seems really cool at first, but after you think about it for a few minutes . . .yeah. Space goats.
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Re: Characters discerning the New Lich King's identity?

Postby Bricu » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:44 am

Thanks to uthas, I now have an image of tirion curbstomping arthas.
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Denne
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Re: Characters discerning the New Lich King's identity?

Postby Denne » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:25 am

Thanks to Bricu, I'm now picturing it as an animated GIF on loop.

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Re: Characters discerning the New Lich King's identity?

Postby Delion » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:49 am

Thanks to Denne, I am now coming up with the funding for the production of this animated GIF.
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Re: Characters discerning the New Lich King's identity?

Postby Shaila » Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:02 pm

I agree, Uthas. There's also the fact that the last two times the Lich King lost control of his minions, they broke out into a horrible, ravening...functioning society capable of planning and rational thought. I refer of course to the Forsaken and the Knights of the Ebon Hold.

There's just no precedent for the Scourge going insane when he loses control. We've observed ourselves that's not how it works. And even if so, you're correct in that they'd be much easier to handle then. Hell, we're handling them now when they -are- capable of planning.

(Also what is Uther doing in the Halls of Reflection he should be in the Plaguelands at his tomb)

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Re: Characters discerning the New Lich King's identity?

Postby Bricu » Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:04 pm

Aren't the ebons and the forsaken examples of individuals with amazing will? The forsaken starter zone is crawling with mindless undead--and there's the forsaken woman who feels herself slipping away. How much of the forsaken's desire for vengence is also an extension of their fear that they will be forced to bow to the lich king, again?

What allowed the forsaken to exist in the first place is the weakening of the lich king in the frozen throne. Sylvannus breaks free and starts her coup. Arthas, in fact, loses levels/ power until the final map of the frozen throne. This is why the forsaken exist.

From what i have seen of the forsaken, I think we see a society started by the arthas and co-opted by sylvannus. This society still seems to have problems holding onto their free will. Without the will to resist, they return to a scourge state.

Not every affected by the plague has the will to resist the lich king. Players, however, can. So do ebon npc's. Again, it appears to be a function of will.

I agree that blizz should have done more in game to demonstrate this; however, I do see the roots of this "will to resist scourge thoughts."
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Re: Characters discerning the New Lich King's identity?

Postby Lansiron » Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:04 pm

Uther is there (as well as near his tomb? I can't remember if that was part of a quest or not) because his soul was imprisoned in Frostmourne, as was that of Terenas, and a hell of a lot of others.

In regards to the explanation of the Scourge running out of control: you could chalk it up to bad writing, but regardless of that, it's canon, and nothing's gonna change it. Fortunately, it can be broken down so as to make a little more sense than it may seem to.

The situations with the Forsaken and the Ebon Blade were pretty isolated incidents. It could be explained that the Forsaken managed to come to themselves because they were the earliest victims, the will of the Lich King was not nearly as strong as it would become, didn't keep hold, and didn't shatter their sanity (also, what Bricu posted above). As for the Ebon Blade, their liberation might've occurred because of the Lich King's vastly diminished power near Light's Hope, and the fact that the Argent Dawn (care of Tirion himself) was able to instantly intervene and come to an agreement with the Ebon knights before any further damage could be done.

Other examples of non-Scourge-controlled undead didn't end so well. Duskwood and Auchindoun are prime examples, as are the cases of practically every ruined Highborne city scattered througout Kalimdor.

The Scourge as it exists now, if left free, might still see some members come to their senses, and may further lose some power by internal factions turning on each other. However, put yourself in Tirion's place and imagine you were calling the shots: Let the Scourge run free, maybe sort some of itself out, but the rest still runs rampant and it ends up costing likely thousands more lives before they could be permanently destroyed? Or hand control to someone who's trustworthy, knowing, or at least hoping, that they can keep the Scourge check, immediately ending the war?

Given this, and knowing how Fordring thinks, it's no surprise at all that he picked the second option. Some leaders might see the cost as necessarily for the sake of ensuring 100% that the undead will never be a threat again, but not that guy, not if there's a chance that lives could be saved.

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Re: Characters discerning the New Lich King's identity?

Postby Shad » Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:30 pm

I think a valid question that we and our characters both should ask is "How do we know that was really Uther, anyway?"

I don't know about you, but I didn't see him give the super secret Silver Handshake.
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Re: Characters discerning the New Lich King's identity?

Postby Lansiron » Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:38 pm

Shad wrote:I think a valid question that we and our characters both should ask is "How do we know that was really Uther, anyway?"

I don't know about you, but I didn't see him give the super secret Silver Handshake.


WoW technology isn't advanced enough yet for us to see those particle effects.


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