In Which Totally Hivemind Has Two Choices

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Shaila
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Re: In Which Totally Hivemind Has Two Choices

Postby Shaila » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:35 am

Alright, I think we need to slow down a LOT.

I know people are eager to get this up and running again, but I don't think we'll be well served by just rushing into new leadership. I see we're already posting how we're gonna run things before even deciding on who's leading or even what the other people who are part of this raid really think about all this. In my opinion the latest flurry of posts could be kind of intimidating to people.

I also didn't really get the impression that Cabby and Gabby dropped all this at the moment of their initial posts, so I think we should give them some more time to post any thoughts they may have as well.

I think the first order of business is to clarify leadership. I am still for the triad, but what do other people currently in the raid think?

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Lansiron
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Re: In Which Totally Hivemind Has Two Choices

Postby Lansiron » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:38 am

I agree with Shai, in that leadership duties (calling the shots, declaring the gameplan, communicating with everyone, serving as a general-point contact/info-guy) should be divided--rule-of-threes declares that three is a very good number.

However, past that point, I'm unsure. I know, though, that Chel and Shai are damn good people, and if Hino's as good as his word, I can support him as well. I will pull my share of the weight, too, however much that is deemed. Chel, what say you about being go-to girl for this in some respect, anyway?

Also: I think it's of utmost importance that we settle on a singular place to carry out these discussions. If the Rosies agree that it's okay, I'm fine with moving this over there. Otherwise we keep this thread up as long as need be.

EDIT: And I also agree with Shai in that we shouldn't try rushing into some half-baked composition as well. I suppose we ought to give all else some elbow room to comment. XD

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Shaila
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Re: In Which Totally Hivemind Has Two Choices

Postby Shaila » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:47 am

Lans, I'd like you part of the triad for what I think are very good reasons, that being the following.

I'm going to keep stressing this because I truly believe it. This is a Riders and Friends raid. I believe it would be good to have at -least- one Rider in the leadership. And Lans, I've seen you in this group's past raid nights, you are very enthusiastic about it. Cabby (and I am assuming by extension Gabby) said in her first post she is willing to help us get on our feet. Since we have that, plus an already established way of running things for this group, the transition would be smooth I think for all three of us.

All of this is of course assuming the others in the raid -want- us to lead.

Hinote
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Re: In Which Totally Hivemind Has Two Choices

Postby Hinote » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:16 am

I should probably reiterate that my purpose here is, by and large, to give Chel's idea of a merger a little more substance than "Hey, we could do this!" Nothing is set in stone by any means, and I said on my first post here that I'm not anywhere near getting started, much less without this whole thing going down. If my responses seem quick or something, it's because this thread has been added to the list of Firefox tabs I have up, which I'm always refreshing whenever I get bored and tab out of WoW or whatever. >.> I encourage people to take time on this sort of thing - if you'd rather just do your own thing, I think I already said I'd be perfectly cool with that.

That said - and I'm trying to be as non-confrontational as possible here - if all that ends up happening is some people from the Rose end come over and everything else stays the same, that's less of a merger and more just a bunch of us joining your raid. That doesn't seem terribly fair to me. I'm fairly sure there's a middle ground to be found somewhere in here.

More to come when it's not 1am. <.<

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Chelody
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Re: In Which Totally Hivemind Has Two Choices

Postby Chelody » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:27 am

Hi everyone! I'm Chelody and I support this message:

First off, allow me to say that I want what is best for this raid, and will do whatever it takes to ensure that. I am not prideful, and I do not want to make some mad grab for power. I am enthusiastic about several people leading and balancing out each others weaknesses. More people knowing the drill means more people to cover if real life and other such thing rears its head for others.

I do not however, want to launch this before we have people, nor want to leave others behind. Totally Hive Mind was sweet enough to take me along and I appreciate it. So please, everyone else speak up and just consider me someone willing to fill any role required to the best of her ability.
Last edited by Chelody on Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Shaila
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Re: In Which Totally Hivemind Has Two Choices

Postby Shaila » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:55 am

That doesn't seem terribly fair to me.

Um, what?

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Lansiron
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Re: In Which Totally Hivemind Has Two Choices

Postby Lansiron » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:11 am

Meaning Hinote put it out there as wanting to start something new himself, rather than be absorbed into something that exists.

To be fair, I don't look at it that way myself. This is a chance for those of us wanting a regular 10-man raid, and able to commit to it fully, to get together and make it work. Whoever is in charge, that's only a matter, so far as I'm concerned, of whatever gets the job done. It isn't something we really should worry too hugely about at this exact moment anyway.

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Re: In Which Totally Hivemind Has Two Choices

Postby Nykkolaia » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:18 am

I know what I said earlier, but this is all getting way too complicated for my already psychotically stressed life. I'm going to have to step off and let someone who can handle things take my spot.

WoW is on hold semi-indefinitely anyway until the stars of my life re-align anyways.

<3s and good luck to all.
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Re: In Which Totally Hivemind Has Two Choices

Postby Tarq » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:47 am

Hi there. I've done some raid leading. Figured I'd be a git and pop in with some Unsolicited Advice with regards to running a successful 10-man, and this one in particular.

Leadership
So, the really nice thing about 10-man raids is that they're a pretty collaborative process, much moreso than the big ones. Half the time, if I'm in a raid with people I know, I'll just throw everyone a raid assist and do a lot of /readycheck votes to see what boss we're gonna do next and so forth. There's usually a minimum of administration that needs to be done, and 90% of it is "Bob can't raid this week cause he has to wash his ferret, should we ask Alice or Hans to sub in?" That can be done by as many people as needed, as long as everyone's got an idea of class balance. Similarly, during the course of the raid, tanks can mark their own targets/CC and pull, etc.

The one thing you really need The Leader for is spur-of-the-moment decisions, primarily "Wipe it down" or "battle rez and keep going." And again, anyone with their eye on the raid and a basic understanding of the way bosses work can make that call. Even a lot of raiding guilds at the 25-man level have a "GM" and a "Raid Leader" who are two seperate people - one person who's good at administration and people management, one person who's good at calling pulls and such. That might not be a bad model for Hivemind.

Consistency
This is the most important quality a raid needs for success. WoW isn't a hard game. You don't have to be some sort of octupus rock star to beat bosses and get loot. What you do have to do is keep the same group (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) together week in, week out. Gear up the same people, keep the group used to coordinating with each other, keep the class balance similar. Of the raids I've run, the #1 reason for eventual failure was attendance fuckery. This raid, as it shapes up, has a lot of enthusiastic people, and that's a key asset. Enthusiastic people don't flake out or toddle off to another raid or sleep their way through content. What I'd recommend to everyone, though, is to pick a raid main and stick with it. Bouncing between characters is an easy way to derail this all-important consistency, not to mention that I've had a lot of experience with people getting irritated when they want to gear up an alt and can't because someone else has prior claim.

Which isn't to say that nobody in the history of ever has ever brought an alt to raid and had it work. TRI has a couple "utility players" who have alts that we summon on demand to fill a significantly different role (ranged DPS trade for healer, that sorta thing), and it generally works. You just need to do your groundwork beforehand. Make sure your role is covered (and not by someone else's undergeared alt), make sure the rest of the raid is cool with it, and make sure to delineate which is the main and which is the alt. That last one is the biggie. If Hans loses a roll for something his main wants to Alice's alt, he might cry. And nobody wants to see a giant German weightlifter cry over a video game.

Bells and Whistles
A brief word on Vent and addons. I require TRI raiders to use Vent and a couple raid addons (oRA, BigWigs/Deadly Boss Mods, Omen). The reason is simple - convenience. We're trying to push content relatively fast and we have a lot of cats to rope in the right direction. Streamlined organization, spur-of-the-moment communication, and quick boss ability alerts are a must. I don't think that a 10-man requires necessarily the same level of outside shenanigans. Blizzard's design intent is that players can clear all content without use of third-party addons, and they've even made changes to encounters and classes with that in mind.

What addons and Vent do is give you room for error. If I have timer bars for my procs and abilities, a big alert when the boss warms up his tank-gibbing sledgehammer of doom, and Zalbuu in my ear going "Dude, you're standing in the lightning," I have a lot more insurance for lag, information overload, and basic human fuckery. It's eminently possible to do content without any of this - you just have to pay attention. A lot. You don't have anyone else to warn you that you have 1.74 seconds to move or you're going to get hit by a small tactical nuke. If you can detect The Fire (which here refers to any number of ludicrously painful area abilities) and make sure you're not standing in The Fire, you have not only obsoleted many addons but also learned how to beat half the raid bosses in WoW.

Vent specifically looks to be a bone of contention, and it often is. I don't think Vent is an inarguable necessity. I do think that it takes the "room for error" principle outlined above and sorta kicks it up to 11 - not only for basic gameplay, but for things like coordination and pulling. And it can also be a lot of fun. However, it definitely makes the raid take on a different atmosphere. What I would heavily recommend against is having half the raid on Vent and the other half not unless it's been made clear that the people on Vent are just there for fun and are communicating via text. You can't have split communication. Either make Vent mandatory and have a way to convey quick instructions to those who can't use it (or just bring mutants like Gabby who already know everything before you tell them), or say it's a text-based raid and, if you get on Vent, keep the conversation away from raid matters.

Putting This Together
Finally, a more specific word on the successor to Totally Hivemind. I mentioned earlier that enthusiasm was a signifcant asset to a raid (especially one in a period of transition), and you guys have it in spades. I would urge you to keep that enthusiasm constructive. Don't get tense about people stealing your raid, cause I'm pretty sure everyone wants the same thing - to see amazingly cool shit, kill it dead, and take its stuff. All the details are easily worked out as long as people keep a cool head and resign themselves to compromise. That second M in MMO kicks people in the nads a lot more often than I'd expect, but it's there and it's significant - you're not going to get to do what you want, when you want, 100% of the time. If that's what you're looking for, I'd recommend buying Prototype. It's fucking awesome.

If you're still here and not ripping open tanks with your bare hands, then you've got this lovely little thread, and interest from two different guild groups, and a big network of advice and connections to draw on to keep things running smoothly. The occasional irritating little compromise where you're dead sure that you're right about this and have to choke it down and come up with something that makes everyone happy - well, welcome to anything that involves two or more people. It's pretty much worth it.

That's all. Go forth and conquer.
Now hang me by this golden noose
'Cause I never been nothin' but your golden goose
Silver tongue don't fail me now
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Hinote
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Re: In Which Totally Hivemind Has Two Choices

Postby Hinote » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:09 pm

Shaila wrote:That doesn't seem terribly fair to me.

Um, what?


I'll elaborate on this since I was posting at like 1am and really didn't feel like going into detail when my bed was looking so nice and comfortable and zzzzzzzzzzzz.

Lans basically had the right idea. For all intents and purposes, I was counting on starting and subsequently leading a raid. I was counting on being the guy who wrote up fight explanations, drew up plans for where to go every raid night, posted sign-ups, filled out rosters, gave advice, all that sort of thing. I was counting on this because, egotistical mode on again, I know I can do it. I have before. In fact, we're hitting that point in my Ulduar-10 where that I've seen more of the place than the other raid leader, so I'm having to make a lot of the calls. I've got every fight in Naxxramas (and, hell, most of Ulduar for that matter) memorized. You get the idea. Egotistical mode off now.

Chel approached me with this idea and from about that point onward I was assuming there'd probably be someone else leading as well. To be honest, I was actually kind of hoping for it, because I'll admit I'm not perfect and sometimes you need a second (or third, or fourth) opinion on whether to beat your head against that boss one last time or go try a new one or whatever. At the very least I'm pretty sure I couldn't be the master looter, because having a tank on ML duty can really slow things down.

All that in mind, this idea of a merger is, well, just that. It's a compromise. Putting two things together implies some aspects of both being present in the final result. If, like I said, all that happens is a bunch of the people signing up on the Rose end join Hivemind, that's not merging two raids. That's just us joining you guys. Do I think that's going to happen? Hell no. We're fairly intelligent people, I think we can find a way through this that everyone's happy with. Am I still worried about it anyways? Yes I am, because it's not really fair for me.

You guys seem fond of the idea of a three-person leadership. Hell, I kind of am too. If I may be a bit selfish, though, perhaps we could bump it up to four? :p


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