So! Lately I was reading a Tolkien related article. The writer mentioned blogging while re-reading through the Silmarillion, and talked about how it helped give him more insight into the book by writing out his thoughts as he read. I thought it was an interesting idea, so I've decided to try it out myself here.
I have a few goals for this experiment.
One, to gain a better understanding of the book myself through writing out my thoughts on it.
Two, to educate people on Tolkien's world further. I know a lot of people find the Silmarillion an absolute chore to read, whereas I enjoy it greatly.
Three, well...I love talking about Tolkien. So I would love it if people also used this thread to engage in discussion about the book, perhaps responding to my thoughts as I post them. I will space out my reading so it doesn't become an obligation, and read no more than one chapter a day. If this experiment succeeds to my satisfaction, I may do more threads like this in the future. Likely the next one will be about the Hobbit, but if I do this long enough I'll do non Tolkien books.
The Silmarillion is in a nutshell the history of Middle Earth. It covers the Beginning, The First Age, the Second Age, and portions of the Third Age, which is when the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings takes place.
Now, Tolkien's lore has a lot of characters. The Silmarillion especially has a lot to keep track of, as it spans many years. So the rest of this post will be dedicated to keeping track of the characters we've been introduced to so far.
Characters
Illúvatar: The Creator of Everything. He's the one who set it all into motion.
Valar: The demigods of Arda.
Manwë: The leader of the good valar. He likes wind.
Varda: Lady of the Stars. AKA Elbereth.
Ulmo: The valar of water.
Aulë: The valar of the earth. This was actually Melkor's area too, but I guess this guy replaced him since he went evil. ..wait, an Earth Guy goes evil? Deathwing's inspiration?
Yavanna: The valar of plantlife.
Námo: The valar of the dead. AKA Mandos.
Vairë: The weaver.
Irmo: The valar of dreams.
Estë: The healer.
Nienna: The valar of grief.
Tulkas: The valar of strength.
Nessa: The valar of funtimes.
Oromë: The valar of the hunt
Vána: The valar of disney princesses.
Maiar: The greater spirits of Arda
Ilmarë: Handmaiden of Varda.
Eönwë: Herald of Manwë.
Ossë: Ulmo's vassal.
Uinen: Lady of the Sea.
Melian: Gardener of Lórien.
Olórin: Pupil of Nienna. AKA Gandalf.
Enemies of Arda
Melkor: The smartest and most powerful of the Valar. He also had a huge ego and became the First Badguy. Responsible for Everything Bad That Has Happened Ever. Associated with fire. AKA Morgoth.
Sauron: Greatest of Melkor's maiar. AKA Gorthaur the Cruel.
I Read: The Silmarillion (Discussion)
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I Read: The Silmarillion (Discussion)
Last edited by Shaila on Sun May 09, 2010 8:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: I Read: The Silmarillion (Discussion)
Ainulindalë
Summary: This first entry in the Silmarillion details the beginning of everything. A being known as Illúvatar is the only being in existence at this time. Eventually he got bored and made beings known as the Ainur. At this time things didn't really have any form, all they could perceive was sound. So Illúvatar reveals this great musical theme to them, but each of them can only comprehend different portions of it. So they combine everything they know into a greater song.
Then there's one ainur called Melkor, and he is not too cool with his part of the song not being more important than the other parts, and tries to change this. But bringing it out of sync created some discord in what was otherwise I assume a pretty kickass song. So Illúvatar tries to create a second theme, but the other ainur are all intimidated by this discord Melkor is creating. So Illúvatar creates an even BETTER theme, and the theme and the discord just keep competing with each other.
So finally Illúvatar has enough of this stuff, and stops the music. He tells Melkor that nothing he creates does not have its source in Illúvatar, which Melkor gets sulky about. Then Illúvatar tells them he's gonna show them exactly what they've been singing about all this time, and gives them a vision of what the world will be like. The ainur were pretty amazed by this world they were seeing, probably partially because they were knew to the whole "seeing" thing as well. What they were most amazed by though were the Children of Illúvatar, elves and humans.
Naturally Melkor's like "Whoa. I gotta make these dudes -bow- to me." Meanwhile the other ainur are discovering water and think it's pretty much the best thing ever. They love the stuff more than the most precious mineral in the world, they go crazy for it. A few ainur in particular seem to choose their respective domains already. Ulmo's in charge of the water, Manwë is in charge of the air and wind, and Aulë is in charge of the earth.
The vision ends and the ainur get all excited about actually experiencing the world. Illúvatar then actually creates the world, which the ainur call Arda. A number of them go down into the world and become bonded to it, becoming the Valar. Once they get down there though they find out that it's just this huge barren wasteland, and they realize that everything they saw in the vision was just the concept for the world created by the music they had sung. They realized that they had to actually shape all these things themselves, so they get to work doing that. Melkor tries to make the world his own, but Manwë gathers together the other valar and drive him off.
Finally the valar choose actual forms to take on Arda, deciding to make themselves look like the elves and men they saw in the vision. Melkor finds out they're doing this and tries out the "taking a form" thing for himself. But because of all the malice in him, his form turns out all ugly and terrifying. He goes to war with the others again, doing his best to screw up all the work they're doing shaping the world. Regardless, eventually, the shaping of the world is done.
My Thoughts: This is the classic "powerful demigod falls from grace for having too big an ego" story. Having a huge ego seems to be one of the worst things you can do, as there are a number of creation stories where this happens.
What I liked about this creation story is that everything is basically started by music. I love music. Music has produced some of the most beautiful things in the world, so I love the concept of music starting everything. Music is all about harmony and working together with those making music alongside you, so I think it makes a lot of sense to have this being the creation of existence. Nature seems absolutely chaotic but, at least on Earth, things always seem to work themselves out as if there's some greater overarching theme to it all. ...well, most of the time it works out at least.
The subject of discord in this Music of Creation is an interesting one. It sorta makes you think that Melkor's ruining the song. Yet Illúvatar tells Melkor that nothing he does is separate from what he has in mind. Which means even this discord could be a part of the greater theme of the music. Basically Melkor's being mocked, Illúvatar saying "Yeah whatever, I meant for that to happen anyways." Discord definitely has its place in music as well. If it's not -meant- to be there yeah it usually sounds awful, but a more chaotic string of notes mixed in at the right time can really give a song a unique and awesome sound. ...I wish I could think of an example offhand, I'll try to update this later if I can. Maybe I'll ask my music teacher.
Something this section touches on briefly that I don't quite understand is that the Valar sort of envy the Children of Illuvatar, because they're somehow favored by him. It doesn't elaborate on -how- they're favored by him, only that they are. It can't be that they're mortal, because elves are among the Children of Illuvatar and they're immortal. It could be because they can experience the world in its fullest. I suppose the valar could be always sort of withdrawn from the world even though they love it. They know what's outside of it and they know all that went into its making, so the magic could sort of be taken out of the experience for them a bit.
Kind of like how if you work at Disneyland and you see all the behind the scenes stuff. The Haunted Mansion for instance is meant to be experienced entirely from the perspective of the ride's track. When you travel off the track like employees do for maintenance and various other things, you see the other sides of the elaborate setup and the illusion is dispelled. You see all the mirrors and the projectors. And the person in the Mickey Mouse costume cusses a lot and has a heavy addiction to hardcore porn.
Summary: This first entry in the Silmarillion details the beginning of everything. A being known as Illúvatar is the only being in existence at this time. Eventually he got bored and made beings known as the Ainur. At this time things didn't really have any form, all they could perceive was sound. So Illúvatar reveals this great musical theme to them, but each of them can only comprehend different portions of it. So they combine everything they know into a greater song.
Then there's one ainur called Melkor, and he is not too cool with his part of the song not being more important than the other parts, and tries to change this. But bringing it out of sync created some discord in what was otherwise I assume a pretty kickass song. So Illúvatar tries to create a second theme, but the other ainur are all intimidated by this discord Melkor is creating. So Illúvatar creates an even BETTER theme, and the theme and the discord just keep competing with each other.
So finally Illúvatar has enough of this stuff, and stops the music. He tells Melkor that nothing he creates does not have its source in Illúvatar, which Melkor gets sulky about. Then Illúvatar tells them he's gonna show them exactly what they've been singing about all this time, and gives them a vision of what the world will be like. The ainur were pretty amazed by this world they were seeing, probably partially because they were knew to the whole "seeing" thing as well. What they were most amazed by though were the Children of Illúvatar, elves and humans.
Naturally Melkor's like "Whoa. I gotta make these dudes -bow- to me." Meanwhile the other ainur are discovering water and think it's pretty much the best thing ever. They love the stuff more than the most precious mineral in the world, they go crazy for it. A few ainur in particular seem to choose their respective domains already. Ulmo's in charge of the water, Manwë is in charge of the air and wind, and Aulë is in charge of the earth.
The vision ends and the ainur get all excited about actually experiencing the world. Illúvatar then actually creates the world, which the ainur call Arda. A number of them go down into the world and become bonded to it, becoming the Valar. Once they get down there though they find out that it's just this huge barren wasteland, and they realize that everything they saw in the vision was just the concept for the world created by the music they had sung. They realized that they had to actually shape all these things themselves, so they get to work doing that. Melkor tries to make the world his own, but Manwë gathers together the other valar and drive him off.
Finally the valar choose actual forms to take on Arda, deciding to make themselves look like the elves and men they saw in the vision. Melkor finds out they're doing this and tries out the "taking a form" thing for himself. But because of all the malice in him, his form turns out all ugly and terrifying. He goes to war with the others again, doing his best to screw up all the work they're doing shaping the world. Regardless, eventually, the shaping of the world is done.
My Thoughts: This is the classic "powerful demigod falls from grace for having too big an ego" story. Having a huge ego seems to be one of the worst things you can do, as there are a number of creation stories where this happens.
What I liked about this creation story is that everything is basically started by music. I love music. Music has produced some of the most beautiful things in the world, so I love the concept of music starting everything. Music is all about harmony and working together with those making music alongside you, so I think it makes a lot of sense to have this being the creation of existence. Nature seems absolutely chaotic but, at least on Earth, things always seem to work themselves out as if there's some greater overarching theme to it all. ...well, most of the time it works out at least.
The subject of discord in this Music of Creation is an interesting one. It sorta makes you think that Melkor's ruining the song. Yet Illúvatar tells Melkor that nothing he does is separate from what he has in mind. Which means even this discord could be a part of the greater theme of the music. Basically Melkor's being mocked, Illúvatar saying "Yeah whatever, I meant for that to happen anyways." Discord definitely has its place in music as well. If it's not -meant- to be there yeah it usually sounds awful, but a more chaotic string of notes mixed in at the right time can really give a song a unique and awesome sound. ...I wish I could think of an example offhand, I'll try to update this later if I can. Maybe I'll ask my music teacher.
Something this section touches on briefly that I don't quite understand is that the Valar sort of envy the Children of Illuvatar, because they're somehow favored by him. It doesn't elaborate on -how- they're favored by him, only that they are. It can't be that they're mortal, because elves are among the Children of Illuvatar and they're immortal. It could be because they can experience the world in its fullest. I suppose the valar could be always sort of withdrawn from the world even though they love it. They know what's outside of it and they know all that went into its making, so the magic could sort of be taken out of the experience for them a bit.
Kind of like how if you work at Disneyland and you see all the behind the scenes stuff. The Haunted Mansion for instance is meant to be experienced entirely from the perspective of the ride's track. When you travel off the track like employees do for maintenance and various other things, you see the other sides of the elaborate setup and the illusion is dispelled. You see all the mirrors and the projectors. And the person in the Mickey Mouse costume cusses a lot and has a heavy addiction to hardcore porn.
Re: I Read: The Silmarillion (Discussion)
I will be paying attention to this thread. 
It might be interesting to note that Tolkien considered the Silmarillion (and the collective history of Middle Earth in general) to be his primary work, and The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings were simply ideas spun off from it that happened to work extremely well (given their longevity)
It's been a very long time since I've read the Silmarillion, though I did so cover-to-cover a couple of times in the past, but it's incredibly dense, and easy to not remember all the details. I do remember, however, that I absolutely loved it.
A few things still stand out (without giving spoilers): note that the elves are not quite the archetype we're used to in modern fantasy--they're portrayed more along the lines of a race with mythic heroism bred into them (and all the trouble that brings), rather than the fey nature-lovers they're depicted as nowadays (though some of them were like that). Fingolfin wins. Fëanor wins (despite being a jerk). Glorfindel (yes, the same one from the LOTR books) wins. Lúthien Tinúviel double wins.
When you get to the part about Túrin Turambar, note that that whole story was recently extrapolated into a full-length, more conventional novel, and released as "The Children of Húrin"--worth a read, if you're interested (and a nice chance to see how Tolkien handles antiheroes and epic tragedy, as opposed to the more straight heroic fantasy in Hobbit/LOTR).
Also, another suggestion as you read: Pay close attention to the character development of Melkor/Morgoth (and later, Sauron) as things progress. There's some entertaining commentary therein on the nature of "archvillainy" as we know it in many stories.
Have fun!
It might be interesting to note that Tolkien considered the Silmarillion (and the collective history of Middle Earth in general) to be his primary work, and The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings were simply ideas spun off from it that happened to work extremely well (given their longevity)It's been a very long time since I've read the Silmarillion, though I did so cover-to-cover a couple of times in the past, but it's incredibly dense, and easy to not remember all the details. I do remember, however, that I absolutely loved it.
A few things still stand out (without giving spoilers): note that the elves are not quite the archetype we're used to in modern fantasy--they're portrayed more along the lines of a race with mythic heroism bred into them (and all the trouble that brings), rather than the fey nature-lovers they're depicted as nowadays (though some of them were like that). Fingolfin wins. Fëanor wins (despite being a jerk). Glorfindel (yes, the same one from the LOTR books) wins. Lúthien Tinúviel double wins.
When you get to the part about Túrin Turambar, note that that whole story was recently extrapolated into a full-length, more conventional novel, and released as "The Children of Húrin"--worth a read, if you're interested (and a nice chance to see how Tolkien handles antiheroes and epic tragedy, as opposed to the more straight heroic fantasy in Hobbit/LOTR).
Also, another suggestion as you read: Pay close attention to the character development of Melkor/Morgoth (and later, Sauron) as things progress. There's some entertaining commentary therein on the nature of "archvillainy" as we know it in many stories.
Have fun!
This analogy is near and dear to my heart. 10/10.Kind of like how if you work at Disneyland and you see all the behind the scenes stuff. The Haunted Mansion for instance is meant to be experienced entirely from the perspective of the ride's track. When you travel off the track like employees do for maintenance and various other things, you see the other sides of the elaborate setup and the illusion is dispelled. You see all the mirrors and the projectors. And the person in the Mickey Mouse costume cusses a lot and has a heavy addiction to hardcore porn.
Re: I Read: The Silmarillion (Discussion)
I should really give this book a read again, it has been over two decades since I have and I generally love Tolkein's works.
Re: I Read: The Silmarillion (Discussion)
Yeah, I remember reading that Tolkien tried pitching the Silmarillion to his primary publisher (Allen and Unwin) a few times, and couldn't get it to fly. Which was probably disappointing to him as this was like you said Lans, his primary work. So he wrote Lord of the Rings instead, but by the time he finished it and began working on The Silmarillion again, he seemed to get into this endless loop of revising the history. This was apparently a problem he had, as his son Christopher once said that the only reason Lord of the Rings was finished was due to C.S. Lewis pushing Tolkien to stop with all the revising.
So the Silmarillion never managed to get published until after Tolkien died.
So the Silmarillion never managed to get published until after Tolkien died.
Re: I Read: The Silmarillion (Discussion)
If you've any experience with music theory/chord theory, this will make sense (If not, you can skip to the sentence "Music is one of the best examples" and avoid the music jargon >.> ) You can't make a V7 chord without a tritone. V7 chords are beautiful and harmonious and wonderful and do awesome things in music. tritones are the most dissonant interval in the western musical tradition. For example, if you can get to a piano. Play a C, E, G, Bb together (C7 chord). It will sound like good things. That's a V7 or Mm7 chord.The subject of discord in this Music of Creation is an interesting one. It sorta makes you think that Melkor's ruining the song. Yet Illúvatar tells Melkor that nothing he does is separate from what he has in mind. Which means even this discord could be a part of the greater theme of the music. Basically Melkor's being mocked, Illúvatar saying "Yeah whatever, I meant for that to happen anyways." Discord definitely has its place in music as well. If it's not -meant- to be there yeah it usually sounds awful, but a more chaotic string of notes mixed in at the right time can really give a song a unique and awesome sound. ...I wish I could think of an example offhand, I'll try to update this later if I can. Maybe I'll ask my music teacher.
Then just play the E and the Bb together. Cringe a little. That's a tritone.
Same thing goes with M7 chords - which are my favorite. There's a built in half-step/major 7th (C-E-G-B - the B-C interval) that is extremely dissonant, but the chord as a whole sounds wonderful. (Play a B and a C together (or any other two notes immediately next to each other). That's a half step.)
And that's NOTHING compared to what you can do when you actually start stringing harmonies together. You can throw in diminished 7th chords (which are composed of not just one, but TWO tritones) and they sound like fuckawesome in the greater scheme of the piece.
Music is really one of the best examples of this kind of "constructive dissonance". That's why most people are so easily bored by early polyphony. The Medievals heard the dissonance in the tritone, labeled it THE DEVIL'S INTERVAL (I'm not kidding) and determined that nobody should ever use it, ever. Same with half steps, etc. (There are many reasons for this, but that's kind of beyond the scope of this just now >.>). Suffice it to say that singing only in perfect intervals results in boredom (for a modern listener), while some of the coolest, most loved, most interesting music in the Western tradition (which is the only tradition I know squat about, so I won't talk about others) is /full/ of dissonances that all work constructively together to make beauty.
>.> That's probably WAY more than you wanted to know...
Edited to add: I will be following this thread VERY closely. Also, I had real trouble with The Silmarillion, until i found it on audio book. As usual, Tolkien is a storyteller as much as a writer, and hearing his stuff out loud (which was my first intro to LotR - my dad and I read Fellowship out loud to each other) brings it to life in a way that finally made it accessible. I'm a HUGE Tolkien nerd (and passable tengwar calligrapher. yes. really.)
[5.OOC] Beltar: Hammer of What The Fuck Were You Thinking
Re: I Read: The Silmarillion (Discussion)
Thank you Aely! You explained that far better than I ever could, I'm glad someone who knows a lot more about music than me could post in here.
And yeah, Tolkien was definitely a storyteller before a writer. If I recall correctly he primarily conceived the Hobbit as a story for his children.
I've always been impressed by the people who went a bit deeper into the elven languages. I've been a fan of Tolkien since I was around eleven and used to read the Silmarillion and the Lord of the rings annually, but I never really had the determination to learn any aspects of the languages. Which is kind of a shame because he obviously put a lot of thought into developing them.
And yeah, Tolkien was definitely a storyteller before a writer. If I recall correctly he primarily conceived the Hobbit as a story for his children.
I've always been impressed by the people who went a bit deeper into the elven languages. I've been a fan of Tolkien since I was around eleven and used to read the Silmarillion and the Lord of the rings annually, but I never really had the determination to learn any aspects of the languages. Which is kind of a shame because he obviously put a lot of thought into developing them.
Re: I Read: The Silmarillion (Discussion)
To be sure, the languages have a small but solid following, firmly in place among his more general fans. I suppose in general it's taken for granted, but I had a joygasm when spoken "elven" (Quenya? I think? Or Sindarin.) was used in the Lord of the Rings movies (to be sure, that was one incident of fanboy glee among many while watching those). Hell, I still try to reference 'em when making up elf characters in D&D and such.
I'm also now somewhat curious about music theory, thanks to this. Though tangentially, lately, I was looking back at Tolkien stuff myself, reading how lots of it is deliberately patterned on Norse mythology (among many other, slightly lesser-known ones), and recently got to examining that even more, and how those cultures developed, and everything...and now I need to find good copies of the Icelandic Sagas and Eddas. So yeah. >_>
I'm also now somewhat curious about music theory, thanks to this. Though tangentially, lately, I was looking back at Tolkien stuff myself, reading how lots of it is deliberately patterned on Norse mythology (among many other, slightly lesser-known ones), and recently got to examining that even more, and how those cultures developed, and everything...and now I need to find good copies of the Icelandic Sagas and Eddas. So yeah. >_>
Re: I Read: The Silmarillion (Discussion)
The only Quenya in the movies is the spell Saurman casts to wake up Caradhras, the poem Namarie (which is being sung while the Fellowship are in Lorien) and a few assorted names. The rest of it was Sindarin - the language of the elves of the "dark" (mostly Elves who had never been other than on Middle Earth). The language derivation for the movie was done by David Salo, and he had to use a bit of creative license with it (duh) to make it speakable. That said, the language itself is workable, and I've done a lot of looking at it. "Purists" can tend to make macrame of their knickers over the modifications made for the movie, but by and large, I love it and spent a lot of time with it when I was in college. That's actually where I picked up tengwar calligraphy - which has the added benefit of being an alphabet instead of a language, and thus can be used to write English
(I feel incredibly nerdy having written that >.>)
Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-Saxon and Middle English Mythology and History (his translation of Gawain and the Green Knight is a classic, and he was a pioneer in Beowulf research - influencing how we look at the poetry and performance to this day). All of his books are steeped in Anglo Saxon stuff, which is closely related to Norse myths, so you get a lot of that flavor. (The song that Eowyn sings at Theodred's funeral is in Anglo Saxon (or something VERY close to it) as are many of the language bits of the Rohirrim).
At his heart, as much as his history were his languages. I got to take a class about him and his work in college, and my professor said that as much as LotR was a story to tell in the world that he'd built, the world he'd built was so that he'd have a people to speak the language he had made. His first created languages are from his college days, but by far Quenya and Sindarin are the most developed that he made. (There are snippets of just about every other language referenced in LotR as well, but they're merely snippets)
(I feel incredibly nerdy having written that >.>)
Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-Saxon and Middle English Mythology and History (his translation of Gawain and the Green Knight is a classic, and he was a pioneer in Beowulf research - influencing how we look at the poetry and performance to this day). All of his books are steeped in Anglo Saxon stuff, which is closely related to Norse myths, so you get a lot of that flavor. (The song that Eowyn sings at Theodred's funeral is in Anglo Saxon (or something VERY close to it) as are many of the language bits of the Rohirrim).
At his heart, as much as his history were his languages. I got to take a class about him and his work in college, and my professor said that as much as LotR was a story to tell in the world that he'd built, the world he'd built was so that he'd have a people to speak the language he had made. His first created languages are from his college days, but by far Quenya and Sindarin are the most developed that he made. (There are snippets of just about every other language referenced in LotR as well, but they're merely snippets)
[5.OOC] Beltar: Hammer of What The Fuck Were You Thinking
Re: I Read: The Silmarillion (Discussion)
The Tolkien Chair at Oxford is actually a linguistics position. An old prof of mine held it for a while 
A rhombus is the kind of rectangle a bitch would draw.